I had hoped to write more about living loved this week, expanding on the joyfully upside down life, but that will wait until next week because some have asked me to write a response to yet another prophetic blast of judgment on the USA (from David Wilkerson). My friend Larry Silverman has some thoughts similar to mine, but I will add some of my own. You can read Larry's blog at http://www.larrysilverman.blogs.com. (Click here to read it in a new window)
For many years, David Wilkerson (whom I greatly respect) and others along with him have prophesied various disasters coming upon the US and other nations as God's judgment. Along with these disasters comes a warning to Christians to stock up on things, etc. (why? So we can share with our neighbors who didn't hear the warning? I would hope that would be the case!). So what are we to make of these warnings? Here are a few brief thoughts.
First, we should note that a lot of predictions of disaster have come and gone without fulfillment. And although some may have indeed sensed disasters like 911 and Katrina, most of the rhetoric about these and similar disasters seems to follow them rather than precede them (hmmm, something to think about, eh?).
Second, the Bible does clearly teach that as the time of Jesus' return draws near there will be lots of disasters of various types. Jesus Himself taught this and you can read some of His descriptions of things in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. And no matter what one's view of The Revelation is, it does clearly seem to indicate a lot of bad things happening as the end of the present age draws near. So...to think that nothing bad will even happen and that things will continue on as they have is probably a bit naive. However, as Larry points out, New Testament prophets didn't function like Old Testament prophets. There are probably lots of reasons for that, but perhaps primary is that the OT prophets were functioning as prophets to the nations of Israel and Judah, reminding the God's covenant people of the covenant to which they had committed themselves and of the consequences of breaking that covenant, etc. NT prophets are prophets to the people of the Kingdom of God, the ekklesia ("church") who are from all the nations of the earth and who are called to transform society by living transformed and transforming lives.
Third, it seems that the focus of prophecy and even response to it changes in the New Testament. Agabus, for example, does predict accurately a coming famine but he didn't add any interpretation to it about it being God's judgment, and the believers, instead of stockpiling goods for themselves, sent an offering to the poor saints in Jerusalem! (see Acts 11:28-30). Think about this a little and see if it seems a wee bit different from the fear-filled strident voices out there right now.
Fourth, I do believe that nations can remove themselves from God's protection and that the US and other western nations have done so. But even in recognizing this we need to remember that God would have spared the very wicked Sodom and Gomorrah if only 10 righteous people had been found there. God's preferred method of bringing people to a change of heart and thinking is kindness (Romans 2:4), so He seems to use the removal of His protection (which leads to disaster) as a last resort (which is apparently what is described in The Revelation). Yes, He will use pain, and He has and He is (most of us know this!!), but I believe that when He does it is also possible to hear His voice in the pain, so that even in disaster His wooing people to Himself can be heard and responded to. On the other hand, when the destruction is wanton and random, my sense is that this is the result of the enemy of us all, who is called among other things, "the destroyer" (God takes no pleasure even in the death of the wicked, remember? Ezekiel 18:23, 33:11).
Finally, are things being shaken? Absolutely, and one would have to be hiding in total denial to not realize this. And there will certainly be more shaking, because God is wooing people to Himself and away from trusting in anything besides Him. And as Larry Silverman writes, judgment when it comes will come first to God's people, not to punish but to purify so that we can be blessings to those around us by being freed from ensnarement to our culture and its warped values. For me, I believe that God is calling us now, with the music of invitation, so that when disaster comes in any form, we will be ready because of His deep deposits of love and generosity in Him, not by stockpiling goods (go ahead, though, and do this if God and not fear leads you to do so).
Just some rambling thoughts. For me, I am choosing to listen to God's voice so that I can be fully present in each moment for whomever He may lead my way. I hear Papa inviting me and all who have ears to hear to transform my world, not judge it. :-)
Living in faith, not fear (at least most of the time!),
Tom, one of Papa's little boys
5 comments:
Hi, Tom,
Thanks for your comments regarding God's judgment.
Here are a few of my thoughts on the subject.I would like to share a few more words David Wilkerson said toward the end of his message, “I will say to my soul: No need to run...no need to hide. This is God’s righteous work. I will behold our Lord on his throne, with his eye of tender, loving kindness watching over every step I take—trusting that he will deliver his people even through floods, fires, calamities, tests, trials of all kinds.” I would also suggest reading the entire message given March, 7 at http://davidwilkersontoday.blogspot.com/ , I would also suggest reading the posts which follow named “Perfect Peace” and “Fear Not. Fix Your Eyes On Jesus”.
When I think of God’s judgment, chastisement, rebuke, and correction I think of His love being demonstrated in my life and the world around me. All that the Lord does is done out of love and this should be the foundation of our faith. God judgment in earthly affairs should never be feared, but welcomed. God is the same and does not change as Mal. 3:6 says, “For I am the Lord, I do not change”, and Heb. 13:8 says, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.” The Lord is our shepherd and He knows how to best care for each one of His sheep and we have nothing to fear from Him as far as doing us harm. He knows us intimately each by name, all our tendencies, and everything about us having the hair on our head numbered (Matt.10:30). He tells us what He is doing so we are not taken by surprise when situations and circumstance take place in our lives and around us in our world. Our faith is to remain steadfast in Him regardless of what is being shaken around us. We are more than conquers through Him who loved us and nothing can separate us from His love (Rom 8: 37-39).
Often when true prophets speak certain words believers fail to seek the Lord concerning the word and hear from Him for themselves. They tend to fear, worry, and run to those who say peace, when there is no peace for the ungodly sinner and the wicked (Isa 57: 20-21). In Psalm 7:11 it says, “God is a just judge, and God is angry with the wicked every day.” While He has righteous anger toward the wicked everyday He is just and loving in all His ways and will never break the law of love. He may choose to bring judgment, punishment, and correction, chastisement on a person, church, or nation (1Cor. 11: 27-34; Heb. 12:3-11; Rev. 2:4-5; Rev. 2:20-23; Rev.3:19). Our part is to learn to trust Him in all the details of our lives even though we do not often understand His ways (Pr. 3:5-6). In Isa. 55: 8-9, we learn, “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than you thoughts. “
God judgment begins with the people of God has it has in times past with the children of Israel (1 Peter 4:17). Today, as believers we are to judge those in body of Christ and deal with their sin, but not the world because God will judge the world according to 1 Cor. 5:11-13, “But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”
As believers when we choose break the law of love and live in unrepentant sin even our prayers are not heard (Ps. 66:18; James 4:3; 1Peter 3:7). In the book of James 5: 19-20 tells us, “Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.” We should love one another and care enough about others to correct them in love. However, most choose to not say anything because it may not be received very well by the person or others who hear about it because of our fear. We have nothing and no one to fear, but Him (Matt. 10: 27-31). Our reverential fear of Him should be based in and flow out of our love for Him. Our love for Him is what enables us to move from mere belief to total trust. We must love Him enough to trust the Him at all times in everything He chooses to do in our lives. He knows what He is doing and knows what is best for us and He does it all in love and all for the ultimate good of mankind. Rest in His love!
Blessings,
His nothing,
Jeff
Thanks, Jeff.
I certainly do know that all that God is done is because of love and that at some point great trouble is coming to the earth. And I certainly never want to be one who prophesies peace when that isn't the case. In fact, I may post some of the things Papa has shown me about the shaking ahead.
I think it's the spirit of what is conveyed that at times concerns me. I would prefer that we all see Agabus as an example: quiet, humble, simply telling what is to come without any judgment spin on it. And then the spirit of generosity instead of hording (as in Acts 11).
The God I worship and know intimately is wonderfully kind, but also holy. I leave much of this in the realm of mystery, but for me, I will always weep when anything bad happens to any human being. No one is my enemy, everyone is a potentially reconciled child of God!
Peace,
Tom
Hi, Tom,
Thanks,I wanted to make sure you knew that I was not disagreeing with you, but sharing my perspective.
I know fleshly tendiecies and how people responed to things they do not want to hear. All we need to do is look at how people respond to sound doctrine, let alone the prophetic word. 2 Timothy 4:2-4 says,"Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."
As far as Agabus is concerned I agree with you, however, we need to look at his prophetic word given to Paul also in Acts 21:10-11,“And as we stayed many days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. When he had come to us, he took Paul’s belt, bound his own hand and feet, and said, “Thus says the Holy Spirit, ‘So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this belt, and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’”
All I can say is if someone gave a word like that today to someone they would receive criticism and may be called a false prophet or even demonic. I don't know how quiet, humble and simple people would view it today. Out of humility Agabus obeyed the Lord, he was bold and could have done it with a loud voice. Some may have not liked the spirit in which it was done, but it does not mean that it was not a word from the Lord.
I agree no one is a personal enemy, however, when we live contrary to God's will we become an enemy of God. As the book of James tells us in James 4:4," Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God."
I opened the Spirit Filled Life Bible to Truth-In-Action through Joel, 1 Steps to knowing God and His Ways and I just happened to read it. It said, "The knowledge of God is to be passed from generation to generation by instructing our children in the nature, character, and ways of God. Thus trained, a deeper understanding of God's current move, whether in judgment or revival, is possible. This understanding avoids reliance on fleshly or demonic sources of guidance, and allows the alignment of our priorities with God's purpose."
I also read the Truth-In-Action Through Joel in the New Spirit Filled Life Bible. Joel Teaches #1 Growing in Godliness it said, "We teach our children godliness when we instruct them about God's nature, character, and the ways He blesses and disciplines His people. They "catch" godiliness when we model it for them in our own lives. Joel instructs the elders to tell their children about God's judgment on Israel that came in the form of a locust invasion. By instructing our childern about the discipline of the Lord, perhaps we can help them avoid the mistakes we have made."
Grace and Peace,
His nothing,
Jeff
"The knowledge of God is to be passed from generation to generation by instructing our children in the nature, character, and ways of God. Thus trained, a deeper understanding of God's current move, whether in judgment or revival, is possible. This understanding avoids reliance on fleshly or demonic sources of guidance, and allows the alignment of our priorities with God's purpose."
Jeff this is good. I think it's about time this happens for once! It appears to have not been happening for a long time in the body of Christ and that is why many flock to "judgment" prophecies or "peace" prophecies. Discernment has been lacking on both sides whether discerning the moves of God in revivals or how God's judgment works under the New Covenant (mercy triumphs over judgment...).
It's interesting that you bring up Agabus, he is a great example of a NT prophet. Both times he gave pretty serious prophetic messages, but he did not interpret what they meant (i.e. God's judgment, sin in Paul's life). He just gave the message and those to whom the message was conveyed (the people or Paul) responded out of their relationship with the Lord.
Thanks Daddy for writing on this :o). I agree that much of the response to this has been fear (again not necessarily David Wilkerson's fault) which of course shows there is something wrong somewhere.
Thanks Jon,
I had a few more thoughts on the subject I would like to share.
The Lord may not have a person to proclaim the interpretaion. This presents God's people with the opportunity to seek the face of God and hear from Him. It does not matter much as to why something happens, whether it is God's judgement, discipline, rebuke or correction in whatever form He chooses. What matters is that we respond in the way God is calling His people to respond to what He is saying and doing at the present time in our lives and the body of Christ, and be able to walk with Him through it trusting and resting in Him knowing He knows best.
As the people of God we are to imitate Jesus who is the same yesterday, today and forever (Heb.13:8). If He calls someone to speak to the church as He did Revelation chapters 2 and 3 what are we to do execpt obey Him whether He gives us the interpretation or not. He can speak the same today as He did in Revelation chapters two and three.
It was the church that judged the sin in 1 Corinthians 5 and brought the discipline needed. The apostle Paul said,in "1 Corinthians 5:4-5
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
My point whether the Lord Jesus is speaking and discpining the church personally or we are dealing with the sin in the body of Christ we can know His love is being shown to us in the midst of the discipline. Jesus said, in Revelation 3:19, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent."
Just knowing that those He loves He rebukes and disciplines which may include punishment when we need it is wonderful to know. He will deal with us in the proper manner and if we endure He deals with us as sons.
As Hebrews 12:5-11, And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives."
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?
But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?
For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness.
Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it."
We must not refuse Him when He speaks to us no matter what the word is as Hebrews 12:25-29,"See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven,
whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven."
Now this, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.
For our God is a consuming fire."
He is the Lord and we are His sheep and we can trust Him to lead and guide us into all truth keeping His wayward sheep from going astray if we allow Him to and not make the word of God of no effect by our traditions, theology, and assumptions without discerning what the Lord is saying to us individually and corporately as the body of Christ (Mark 7:13).
Remember, if we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us we are His and if we do not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us then we are not His (Rom.8:5-11). If our fear of the Lord pushes us away from the Lord instead of causing us to seek Him our foundation is wrong and we need to rebuild our foundation in His love and serve Him out of a motive of love. Perfect love casts out fear (John 4:17-19).
The only thing we have to fear is not being His and being eternally seperated from Him, but those who are not His really do not care about it.
Grace and peace,
His nothing,
Jeff
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